Author Topic: PolitiCentral  (Read 76645 times)

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Offline Rakia_Time

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Re: PolitiCentral
« Reply #25 on: September 07, 2012, 05:29:33 AM »
I have to point out here that there are lots of countries who have no important resource.
we don't have important resources...unless beer counts
I realize that you are always prepared for a sudden random phallus, but for your own safety, shut your mouth!

Offline Grif101

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Re: PolitiCentral
« Reply #26 on: September 07, 2012, 05:32:08 AM »
we don't have important resources...unless beer counts

If you're talking American beer, I have to laugh hysterically. If you're talking Canadian beer, I'd say it ranks just below Canadian petroleum and uranium. :P
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Offline Rakia_Time

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Re: PolitiCentral
« Reply #27 on: September 07, 2012, 05:46:51 AM »
If you're talking American beer, I have to laugh hysterically. If you're talking Canadian beer, I'd say it ranks just below Canadian petroleum and uranium. :P
I'm talking Bulgarian beer.....i wouldn't drink american beer even if i'm about to die in a desert :D
I realize that you are always prepared for a sudden random phallus, but for your own safety, shut your mouth!

Offline Grif101

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Re: PolitiCentral
« Reply #28 on: September 07, 2012, 06:16:25 AM »
I'm talking Bulgarian beer.....i wouldn't drink american beer even if i'm about to die in a desert :D

Ditto to that.  :D
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Offline mikethor007

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Re: PolitiCentral
« Reply #29 on: September 07, 2012, 07:08:27 AM »
I'm talking Bulgarian beer.....i wouldn't drink american beer even if i'm about to die in a desert :D
Amen.
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Offline PMorgan18

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Re: PolitiCentral
« Reply #30 on: September 25, 2012, 03:32:26 PM »

Leave you nothing left to hold
When you're nothing it's a good time to remind you of one thing
The pursuit begins when this portrayal of life, ends

Offline Grif101

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Re: PolitiCentral
« Reply #31 on: November 13, 2012, 05:04:08 AM »
After doing some historical research, I am now firmly against republicanism in all aspects, and now see how bigoted and hypocritical the entire movement really is.

No offence intended towards individual republicans. If you are offended, tough. :P
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Offline Tobbs

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Re: PolitiCentral
« Reply #32 on: November 13, 2012, 09:37:52 AM »
After doing some historical research, I am now firmly against republicanism in all aspects, and now see how bigoted and hypocritical the entire movement really is.

No offence intended towards individual republicans. If you are offended, tough. :P
Because there has never been a bad monarch in Humanity's history, right?

Keep calm and move along.

Offline Grif101

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Re: PolitiCentral
« Reply #33 on: November 13, 2012, 09:45:53 AM »
Because there has never been a bad monarch in Humanity's history, right?

Who says that? I'm advocating the system of monarchy over a republic. There's been bad Monarchs as well as bad Presidents, no one is denying that.
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Offline Tobbs

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Re: PolitiCentral
« Reply #34 on: November 13, 2012, 09:48:31 AM »
Who says that? I'm advocating the system of monarchy over a republic. There's been bad Monarchs as well as bad Presidents, no one is denying that.
This is why a political thread was a bad idea. If I respond with why I disagree with you, we may get into another flaming war and might beat each other to death.

Keep calm and move along.

Offline Grif101

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Re: PolitiCentral
« Reply #35 on: November 13, 2012, 10:08:11 AM »
This is why a political thread was a bad idea. If I respond with why I disagree with you, we may get into another flaming war and might beat each other to death.

Nah, I'd just post a pretty neat monarchist site I found, and let you decide.
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Offline Tobbs

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Re: PolitiCentral
« Reply #36 on: November 13, 2012, 12:39:07 PM »
Also, I just want you to know, Grif, that you have been partially successful in affecting my political beliefs. Since our political tantrums, you have turned me more monarchist-conservative. Now I'm kind of in a gray zone.

Congratulations.

Keep calm and move along.

Offline Grif101

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Re: PolitiCentral
« Reply #37 on: November 13, 2012, 09:50:27 PM »
Also, I just want you to know, Grif, that you have been partially successful in affecting my political beliefs. Since our political tantrums, you have turned me more monarchist-conservative. Now I'm kind of in a gray zone.

Congratulations.

Great success!  :sorcerer:
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Offline mikethor007

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Re: PolitiCentral
« Reply #38 on: November 13, 2012, 09:51:45 PM »
Great success!  :sorcerer:
This was a triumph!
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Offline Tairis Deamhan

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Re: PolitiCentral
« Reply #39 on: November 15, 2012, 03:09:29 AM »
Monarchy is great... until you get a bad one. Maybe some day we'll find the perfect form of government but we ain't yet.
"I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do." - Robert Heinlein.

Offline Grif101

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Re: PolitiCentral
« Reply #40 on: November 15, 2012, 03:35:20 AM »
Monarchy is great... until you get a bad one. Maybe some day we'll find the perfect form of government but we ain't yet.

No form of government is perfect, that's undeniable. Human governments will always be fallible and flawed. I just personaly believe monarchy is the most ideal form of government, out of the ones we know and have.
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Offline Tairis Deamhan

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Re: PolitiCentral
« Reply #41 on: November 15, 2012, 04:27:23 AM »
No form of government is perfect, that's undeniable. Human governments will always be fallible and flawed. I just personaly believe monarchy is the most ideal form of government, out of the ones we know and have.

The monarchy/dictatorship doesn't work due to the investment of power in a single individual making it impossible to affect lasting change. Any improvements to the citizens quality of life, rights, etc are only good insofar as the current monarch is concerned. You can avoid some issues by making it non-hereditary but you still run into the issue that one bad monarch can completely undo everything the last dozen did (see the 'Five Good Emperors' for an excellent example).

You need some way for ideas to become entrenched in such a way that they can't be changed on a whim. That's the advantaged offered by our current system in that once a right or privilege is gained by the citizenry it is difficult to then revoke as it requires a consensus among the political factions to uproot it. This is also its downside as it makes it very hard to affect change when it IS needed.

You would likely get a better result out of some sort of mix of the two. A general electorate for many government positions, but a way to put certain individuals in positions with far more reach and authoritarian powers.
"I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do." - Robert Heinlein.

Offline Grif101

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Re: PolitiCentral
« Reply #42 on: November 15, 2012, 04:45:38 AM »
The monarchy/dictatorship doesn't work due to the investment of power in a single individual making it impossible to affect lasting change. Any improvements to the citizens quality of life, rights, etc are only good insofar as the current monarch is concerned. You can avoid some issues by making it non-hereditary but you still run into the issue that one bad monarch can completely undo everything the last dozen did (see the 'Five Good Emperors' for an excellent example).

You need some way for ideas to become entrenched in such a way that they can't be changed on a whim. That's the advantaged offered by our current system in that once a right or privilege is gained by the citizenry it is difficult to then revoke as it requires a consensus among the political factions to uproot it. This is also its downside as it makes it very hard to affect change when it IS needed.

You would likely get a better result out of some sort of mix of the two. A general electorate for many government positions, but a way to put certain individuals in positions with far more reach and authoritarian powers.

You mistake me. I'm not advocating absolute monarchy (technically called arbitrary monarchy). I advocate a variant of constitutional monarchy, but one where the monarch isn't reduced to a mere figurehead, sidelined and under the will of a parliament. The ideal government for me is an constitutional monarchy, but instead of a parliament dominated by political parties, lobbyists and petty political squabbles, the monarch would be checked by a...hmmm, let's call it council of nobles. The Monarch would have the power to pass laws, but it would have to go through the nobles, and a Monarch could be vetoed my a majority vote amongst the nobles. There would also be a written constitution, enshrining basic rights of the citizenry, and could only be changed by an agreement between the monarch and nobles.

Naturally of course, the nobility could have the power to force a monarch to abdicate, if the monarch steps out of line. But in the case of forcing an abdication, I believe it should be a unaminous decision. The positions would be hereditary, but the monarch could dismiss an incompetent or corrupt noble.

I personally think democracy is overrated. Too much bureaucracy, political strife, corruption and instability. With a government based on hereditary positions, you have a more stable government, more experienced leaders, less bureaucratic BS and that's able to better focus on national rather personal issues. Is such a government free of corruption? Petty squabbles? Infighting? No, but there is invariably less of it.
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Offline LordNecross

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Re: PolitiCentral
« Reply #43 on: November 15, 2012, 05:07:24 AM »
You mistake me. I'm not advocating absolute monarchy (technically called arbitrary monarchy). I advocate a variant of constitutional monarchy, but one where the monarch isn't reduced to a mere figurehead, sidelined and under the will of a parliament. The ideal government for me is an constitutional monarchy, but instead of a parliament dominated by political parties, lobbyists and petty political squabbles, the monarch would be checked by a...hmmm, let's call it council of nobles. The Monarch would have the power to pass laws, but it would have to go through the nobles, and a Monarch could be vetoed my a majority vote amongst the nobles. There would also be a written constitution, enshrining basic rights of the citizenry, and could only be changed by an agreement between the monarch and nobles.

Naturally of course, the nobility could have the power to force a monarch to abdicate, if the monarch steps out of line. But in the case of forcing an abdication, I believe it should be a unaminous decision. The positions would be hereditary, but the monarch could dismiss an incompetent or corrupt noble.

I personally think democracy is overrated. Too much bureaucracy, political strife, corruption and instability. With a government based on hereditary positions, you have a more stable government, more experienced leaders, less bureaucratic BS and that's able to better focus on national rather personal issues. Is such a government free of corruption? Petty squabbles? Infighting? No, but there is invariably less of it.
Monarchy is too old fashioned for my taste. :P You just want one evil over another. You're system is just as fallible if not more fallible, as you seem to assume that their is any real checks and balances to your system which also uses an archaic bloodline approach to politics.

Really all that will happen is it will eventually fail, because it requires to much of its leaders. Basically their will never be a perfect situation for it to always work, all it takes is one corrupt King to throw the system off, a King with Noble friends.

Basically you would end up with Nobles and Peasants again. And your ideal system can apply to any Government type, with enough good people in a leading role then everything goes swimmingly.

The difference is your system is smaller, and means more prone to corruption, by a far larger degree. While a Democracy can be corrupt as well, the number of representatives statistically recifies this, and the people choose what they believe will help them. Monarchy doesn't give much in that way so its only a matter of time till its up excrement creek without a paddle, while Democracies can recover(Unless some special situation changes that).

Offline Grif101

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Re: PolitiCentral
« Reply #44 on: November 15, 2012, 05:38:33 AM »
Monarchy is too old fashioned for my taste. :P You just want one evil over another. You're system is just as fallible if not more fallible, as you seem to assume that their is any real checks and balances to your system which also uses an archaic bloodline approach to politics.

Really all that will happen is it will eventually fail, because it requires to much of its leaders. Basically their will never be a perfect situation for it to always work, all it takes is one corrupt King to throw the system off, a King with Noble friends.

Basically you would end up with Nobles and Peasants again. And your ideal system can apply to any Government type, with enough good people in a leading role then everything goes swimmingly.

The difference is your system is smaller, and means more prone to corruption, by a far larger degree. While a Democracy can be corrupt as well, the number of representatives statistically recifies this, and the people choose what they believe will help them. Monarchy doesn't give much in that way so its only a matter of time till its up excrement creek without a paddle, while Democracies can recover(Unless some special situation changes that).

You speak of hereditary bloodlines and governments being archaic, but tell me Necross, just how old do you think democratic republics are? The truth is, they're almost as old as monarchies themselves, so the "outdated" arguement doesn't hold any water here. :P

And what of your President Necross? The American governmental system is practically no better. The US President is essentially an elected dictator, who's just held down by a bureaucracy of petty politicians more out for their gain then the US's. And the President practically can't get anything done. For the first four years, he's more concerned about getting re-elected, leaving him with only practically four years where he focus's on national issues if he's re-elected. Your Congress is dominated by special interests and lobbyists, all vying for attention and who's issues almost have nothing to do with American national interests.

And you're mistaken, less government leads to less corruption. The more politicians there are, the more people there who can be bribed and bought off, and the more petty political infighting and squabbles there are.

With hereditary positions, government positions are more secured and stable, and the person has more time to grow experienced and knowledgeable in his field. And have you looked at western society? People are too dumb to vote. There's a reason it's called a popular democracy. People don't vote for smart decisions, they vote for what they think is popular, fashionable and just genrally what they want. The hard truth is that sometimes the wise decision, the smart decision, the right decision will not always be popular, but because of the current democratic system our leaders are prevented from making good decisions because of the mob rule. They're more afraid of becoming unpopular than doing what's right for the nation, and that will never change unless we grow up and establish a more traditional form of government that will not fear for their popularity or being ousted, just because they made a decision that some people didn't like. The democratic system is far more flawed and fallible than a monarchy, that is the simple truth.

Don't believe me? Look at the ratio of successful republics to successful monarchies, and I'm talking globally, not just within the western hemisphere.
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Offline Grif101

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Re: PolitiCentral
« Reply #45 on: November 15, 2012, 05:49:22 AM »
Here, read some of these articles, this guy makes the point better than I ever could:

http://madmonarchist.blogspot.ca/search/label/monarchism
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Offline LordNecross

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Re: PolitiCentral
« Reply #46 on: November 15, 2012, 06:02:14 AM »
The democratic system is far more flawed and fallible than a monarchy, that is the simple truth.

Don't believe me? Look at the ratio of successful republics to successful monarchies, and I'm talking globally, not just within the western hemisphere.
You say that like its is the truth, but it isn't.

Democracies are not perfect, but neither is a Monarchy. The funny thing is that in ancient times of the first Democracies, they eventually fell apart and were replaced by Kings, but then eventually those disappeared only to be replaced yet again by Democracies and Republics.

Like Taris said it only takes one to mess it up. I just see Democracies as more stable, Monarchies seem to run on whim and hoping the leader is competent or him or hers children will be competent.

I also believe the people always deserve the right to choose, as a Government should never be above its people, only made by its people to serve it. If a King is willing to submit himself fully to his people, then its no longer a Monarchy.

Its fine though its interesting to talk about something that won't happen. :P

Offline PMorgan18

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Re: PolitiCentral
« Reply #47 on: November 15, 2012, 07:16:45 AM »
Technocracy is all I have to say.

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Offline Grif101

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Re: PolitiCentral
« Reply #48 on: November 15, 2012, 08:02:42 AM »
You say that like its is the truth, but it isn't.

Democracies are not perfect, but neither is a Monarchy. The funny thing is that in ancient times of the first Democracies, they eventually fell apart and were replaced by Kings, but then eventually those disappeared only to be replaced yet again by Democracies and Republics.

Like Taris said it only takes one to mess it up. I just see Democracies as more stable, Monarchies seem to run on whim and hoping the leader is competent or him or hers children will be competent.

I also believe the people always deserve the right to choose, as a Government should never be above its people, only made by its people to serve it. If a King is willing to submit himself fully to his people, then its no longer a Monarchy.

Its fine though its interesting to talk about something that won't happen. :P

Oh, but it is!  :sorcerer:

As I stated before, I absolutely believe no government is perfect. And yet look at the majority of the republics that replaced the monarchies. Laos, Vietnam, Italy, China, Cameroon, Chad, South Africa, Congo, Libya, Egypt, Iran, Iraq, Greece, Indonesia, Cambodia, India, Burma and so many others. Not exactly a good track record for republicanism. Most have gone through violent revolutions, military coups, poverty, economic depression and genocide. Was the French Revolution worth the overthrow of the monarchy? Was Robispierre and the Reign of Terror really worth it? The Second Spanish Republic, supposedly because it's a republic it was enlightened and free, but yet more people died under the Second Spanish Republic then in the entire history of the Spanish Inquisition during the Spanish Empire. The US dismembering the Dutch Empire by forcing them to grant independence to the Dutch East Indies, ended in the independent Indonesian republic going throw civil war, poverty and economic depression, which is still going on. That's in contrast to the stable government and growing economy under Dutch rule. Decolonization, once again spearheaded by the US, was a total disaster. Almost every single independent African, Middle Eastern and Asian republic collapsed, and now they're third world excrementholes as opposed to when they were as part of the colonial empires. Even the American Revolution was a horrible affair, as the American Rebels showed absolutely no tolerance towards the Loyalists, despite espousing such things as freedom and liberty, so they kicked them out and seized their property, leaving them practically nothing. Greece and Italy are near collapse, but yet during the monarchies before, they were relatively stable and prosperous.

Now looks at today's modern monarchies. Norway, Sweden, Japan, Belgium, Netherlands, Luxembourg, Monaco, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and Denmark are doing pretty damn well compared to everyone else. Norway, Sweden, Luxembourg, Japan, Denmark, Canada, Netherlands, Australia and New Zealand have been hit the least hardest by the recession compared to their neighbours. Monaco is one of the wealthiest nations on the planet. Belgium right now is suffering from some growing ethnic tensions, but you know what's kept it together? The shared love and loyalty to the Belgian monarchy. The UK is going through a pretty excrementty time right now true, but if you asked anywhere there what they thought of Prime Minister Cameron, you wouldn't get very many kind words. Queen Elizabeth II? You'd get a lot of support, especially for Prince William and the Duchess of Cambridge.

Look at the Caribbean nations that are still under Dutch rule. They have actual greater economic prosperity than their republican neighbours, heck they're even doing better than some of the British ones.

I'm sorry to say Necross, but republicanism is the far worse alternative to a monarchial government. All you have to do is look at world history and the present world to see I'm right.

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Offline LordNecross

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Re: PolitiCentral
« Reply #49 on: November 15, 2012, 08:11:11 AM »


I'm sorry to say Necross, but republicanism is the far worse alternative to a monarchial government. All you have to do is look at world history and the present world to see I'm right.
Not really all you have to do is say you are right. When in fact in my eyes you are wrong, I see the world as better off without monarchies and those who believe they should rule the time for them has come and passed.

I just really have to disagree with you on every point but you are free to have your delusions. :P