Author Topic: Playstation Store to be Restored Next Week  (Read 20014 times)

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Offline The Doctor

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Re: Playstation Store to be Restored Next Week
« Reply #25 on: June 02, 2011, 06:23:11 AM »
Just because I was thinking about it and thought you all might find it interesting/relevant to the above security discussion.  Here's an excerpt from the preface to one of my favorite books "Applied Cryptography" by Bruce Schneier (Why you should car what Bruce Schneier has to say on the subject is an exercise left to the reader)

Quote
If I take a letter, lock it in a safe, hide the safe somewhere in New York, then tell you to read the letter, that's not security.  That's obscurity.  On the other hand, if I take a letter and lock it in a safe, and then give you the safe along with the design specifications of the safe and a hundred identical safes with their combinations so that you and the world's best safecrackers can study the locking mechanism - and you still can't open the safe and read the letter - that's security.

If you are interested in learning more on the subject I highly encourage you to pick up a copy of "Secrets and Lies: Digital Security in a Networked World".  "The Art of Deception" is another very good book, but it focuses on the human element more than anything else.
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Re: Playstation Store to be Restored Next Week
« Reply #26 on: June 02, 2011, 08:35:56 AM »
Firstly someone will always be doing it.  Someone with malicious intent.  Wouldn't you prefer there where some people who weren't planning on stealing things and told people how to fix it too?  This is the same thing as guns.  If you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have guns.  People with intent to cause harm don't care if their method is illegal and they won't let it stop them.

And these people who aren't just content to leave things alone, who insist on hacking things and fiddling, and messing about?  You owe them more than a little.  This website is on SMF, open source software.  Running on an apache webserver.  Open source software.  Connected to a MySQL database.  Open source software.  All on a linux box.  Open source software.  All this in a VPS system.  Probably also open source software given the nature of our host.

All these things are created by people who weren't happy with what they had.  They wanted more and they put their time and effort into making it more.  Then they gave it away for free.  These are the same people who muck about in the PS3 and XBox and Wii hacking them.  It's the same approach that gave us light bulbs and running water.  I don't understand people who can be happy inside a little box of what they know and what they have.  How can you not want more?  How can you not try to expand your horizons?
I just think that the people doing it should be the people hired to do the security and not the random public.
Sure if it's a hobby let them do it but not actively do it on a wide network where everyone's information is held.
It's just stupid to allow people the possibility of getting in.

I don't really owe them much as they did something I do not understand and not for my direct benefit, this site is merely just a copy of are old one just bigger, we only have it because everyone was unhappy with the old one for some random reason.
Just because I was thinking about it and thought you all might find it interesting/relevant to the above security discussion.  Here's an excerpt from the preface to one of my favorite books "Applied Cryptography" by Bruce Schneier (Why you should car what Bruce Schneier has to say on the subject is an exercise left to the reader)

If you are interested in learning more on the subject I highly encourage you to pick up a copy of "Secrets and Lies: Digital Security in a Networked World".  "The Art of Deception" is another very good book, but it focuses on the human element more than anything else.

I thought that Quote was great for security actually, people can't break into what they can't find.
The risk is there even if people don't poke at it. It just doesn't materialize. I'm sorry, but security through obscurity is THE WORST kind of security to have.

What you said is akin of asking humanity not to invent anything. "Why should people invent stuff and not be happy with what they have?"
No risk no failure.
The way I see it if you keep letting there be an option the more malicious people will exploit it, being kind to them is pointless, take away all avenues of their access and they won't be able to hack, simple as IMO.
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Offline The Doctor

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Re: Playstation Store to be Restored Next Week
« Reply #27 on: June 02, 2011, 03:35:04 PM »
I just think that the people doing it should be the people hired to do the security and not the random public.
Sure if it's a hobby let them do it but not actively do it on a wide network where everyone's information is held.
It's just stupid to allow people the possibility of getting in.

The people doing it non maliciously aren't doing it to the network.  At least not in the PS3 case.  They're screwing around with the hardware they bought and they own at home.  And the entire point is to make it -harder- for people to get in.

Quote
I don't really owe them much as they did something I do not understand and not for my direct benefit, this site is merely just a copy of are old one just bigger, we only have it because everyone was unhappy with the old one for some random reason.

The combination of Linux, Apache, MySQL, and PHP (all open source projects) is commonly known as a LAMP stack.  It's the core of probably well over 60% of the websites on the internet and at peak was running around 85%.  For reference while it's market share fell it's on the rise again.

Quote
I thought that Quote was great for security actually, people can't break into what they can't find.No risk no failure.
The way I see it if you keep letting there be an option the more malicious people will exploit it, being kind to them is pointless, take away all avenues of their access and they won't be able to hack, simple as IMO.

But it's not security.  You've hidden it, but if someone stumbles upon it they have complete access.  Obscurity as security is actually highly illegal in many cases.  For instance Credit Card numbers.  If you do not heavily secure them you will be fined into oblivion.

And making things illegal doesn't stop people with malicious intent.  You -cannot- stop hacking in any form from occurring, you can choose to work with the ones who aren't in it for malicious use in order to help secure it against those who would.  It's like putting a sign on a bank saying "no guns".  You think the guy intending to rob the place is going to care?
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Re: Playstation Store to be Restored Next Week
« Reply #28 on: June 02, 2011, 04:13:18 PM »
The people doing it non maliciously aren't doing it to the network.  At least not in the PS3 case.  They're screwing around with the hardware they bought and they own at home.  And the entire point is to make it -harder- for people to get in.

The combination of Linux, Apache, MySQL, and PHP (all open source projects) is commonly known as a LAMP stack.  It's the core of probably well over 60% of the websites on the internet and at peak was running around 85%.  For reference while it's market share fell it's on the rise again.

But it's not security.  You've hidden it, but if someone stumbles upon it they have complete access.  Obscurity as security is actually highly illegal in many cases.  For instance Credit Card numbers.  If you do not heavily secure them you will be fined into oblivion.

And making things illegal doesn't stop people with malicious intent.  You -cannot- stop hacking in any form from occurring, you can choose to work with the ones who aren't in it for malicious use in order to help secure it against those who would.  It's like putting a sign on a bank saying "no guns".  You think the guy intending to rob the place is going to care?
But it's not really the same thing though.
For me intent to break is malicious intent, whether they do god with the information they have or not, nothing stops them from using the information they get just as nothing really brings them to bring it forward.

Plus if someone stumbles across said safe they won't have the key.
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Re: Playstation Store to be Restored Next Week
« Reply #29 on: June 02, 2011, 04:36:03 PM »
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Offline The Doctor

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Re: Playstation Store to be Restored Next Week
« Reply #30 on: June 02, 2011, 04:41:53 PM »
I rest my case.

Aye.  There is always risk and not taking steps to reduce it is just asking for trouble.
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Re: Playstation Store to be Restored Next Week
« Reply #31 on: June 02, 2011, 04:51:17 PM »
I rest my case.
So if there is no risk of them being able to hack in the first place then there is no failure of the breaching of their systems.
If people have no means to hack in then they can't.
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Offline The Doctor

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Re: Playstation Store to be Restored Next Week
« Reply #32 on: June 02, 2011, 04:54:04 PM »
So if there is no risk of them being able to hack in the first place then there is no failure of the breaching of their systems.
If people have no means to hack in then they can't.

But you can't take the means away.
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Re: Playstation Store to be Restored Next Week
« Reply #33 on: June 02, 2011, 04:56:47 PM »
Small note:  While this may be against Sony's TOS, it's not against the law to install custom firmware on a PS3 or on any other device that you personally own.  You bought it; you can do what you want with it.
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Re: Playstation Store to be Restored Next Week
« Reply #34 on: June 02, 2011, 04:58:28 PM »
But you can't take the means away.
Sure you can.
If Linux is the means they use then take it away so they can't hack.
No more hacking potential means no more threat.
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Re: Playstation Store to be Restored Next Week
« Reply #35 on: June 02, 2011, 05:37:17 PM »
Sure you can.
If Linux is the means they use then take it away so they can't hack.
No more hacking potential means no more threat.

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Re: Playstation Store to be Restored Next Week
« Reply #36 on: June 02, 2011, 05:42:10 PM »
*snip*
Considering I am not a Linux user, have little technological knowledge and I am just trying to make sense of it, yeah I am serious.
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Re: Playstation Store to be Restored Next Week
« Reply #37 on: June 02, 2011, 05:48:24 PM »
Considering I am not a Linux user, have little technological knowledge and I am just trying to make sense of it, yeah I am serious.

It is possible to hack anything you want.  Linux didn't really even make it that much easier to hack the PS3 other than that it allowed one to see the system's hardware configuration in more detail.  Using Linux didn't really even make it easier to run homebrew/pirated games.  In fact, nobody really even had tried to hack the PS3's firmware/authentication until Sony removed the ability to install Linux.
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Offline The Doctor

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Re: Playstation Store to be Restored Next Week
« Reply #38 on: June 02, 2011, 05:54:34 PM »
Sure you can.
If Linux is the means they use then take it away so they can't hack.
No more hacking potential means no more threat.

Linux is not the means of attack.  The means of attack is being human.  Linux is an OS, like windows or Mac.  It happens to be a very secure OS because the community actively invites attempts to break the system.  There are 40,000 known viruses for windows.  There are 3 known viruses for Linux.
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Re: Playstation Store to be Restored Next Week
« Reply #39 on: June 02, 2011, 05:58:10 PM »
Linux is not the means of attack.  The means of attack is being human.  Linux is an OS, like windows or Mac.  It happens to be a very secure OS because the community actively invites attempts to break the system.  There are 40,000 known viruses for windows.  There are 3 known viruses for Linux.
And they wonder why people are being lost to technology. :P

I see in this that Linux is harder, therefore a lot less people can understand, therefore they'll want the easier solution. :P

I have an idea!
Make Linux easier and then no-one will want to hack as they know everything! :D

(FYI that time I was not serious. :P)
It is possible to hack anything you want.  Linux didn't really even make it that much easier to hack the PS3 other than that it allowed one to see the system's hardware configuration in more detail.  Using Linux didn't really even make it easier to run homebrew/pirated games.  In fact, nobody really even had tried to hack the PS3's firmware/authentication until Sony removed the ability to install Linux.
To me Hack still means break.
To my mind Hacking is on the same level as smashing with a hammer.
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Re: Playstation Store to be Restored Next Week
« Reply #40 on: June 02, 2011, 06:02:45 PM »
To me Hack still means break.
To my mind Hacking is on the same level as smashing with a hammer.

Yes, but it's not hacking if you own it...  For example, if I sold you a car that had 5 gears but I "updated" your car to only let you use the first 3 gears.  If you figured out a way to use all 5 gears again, how is that illegal?  It doesn't affect anyone else and it's not malicious.

Also, Linux isn't even what people were using to hack the PS3!  They ended up hacking the PS3 BECAUSE Sony took away their ability to run Linux.
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Re: Playstation Store to be Restored Next Week
« Reply #41 on: June 02, 2011, 06:05:41 PM »
Yes, but it's not hacking if you own it...  For example, if I sold you a car that had 5 gears but I "updated" your car to only let you use the first 3 gears.  If you figured out a way to use all 5 gears again, how is that illegal?  It doesn't affect anyone else and it's not malicious.

Also, Linux isn't even what people were using to hack the PS3!  They ended up hacking the PS3 BECAUSE Sony took away their ability to run Linux.
So they were so connected to their Linux.
Big whoop.
If it wasn't an option there wouldn't have been this trouble over it.

No it'd be fixing as you broke it in the first place.
Removing Linux is not breaking the PS3 as it's Sony's decision as they own the rights to the software accessed by their systems.
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Re: Playstation Store to be Restored Next Week
« Reply #42 on: June 02, 2011, 06:35:37 PM »
So they were so connected to their Linux.
Big whoop.
If it wasn't an option there wouldn't have been this trouble over it.

No it'd be fixing as you broke it in the first place.
Removing Linux is not breaking the PS3 as it's Sony's decision as they own the rights to the software accessed by their systems.

That's a very naive viewpoint but I can see that nothing I am going to say will change your mind so I am leaving this thread now.
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Re: Playstation Store to be Restored Next Week
« Reply #43 on: June 02, 2011, 06:39:30 PM »
That's a very naive viewpoint but I can see that nothing I am going to say will change your mind so I am leaving this thread now.
Well if I am naive then I think it's because everyone is making a massive fuss over losing a little bit of software.
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Re: Playstation Store to be Restored Next Week
« Reply #44 on: June 02, 2011, 10:52:50 PM »
Maz, do you by any chance have an Ipod which you have jailbroken?   because that is hacking. It is used to make your life easier. hacking is not what you think it is. there is a big difference in Hacking, in fact in todays world, it has many meanings. The main one is to modify, or create something new out of something else.

I have been taking a programming class at my school for the past 3 years now. In all of my programs I end up making, I almost always have to hack the code to find errors, as well as generally improve it for the better. This isnt Malicious, and it is all Hobby and Education. This is that same people who did minor experimentations in Linux on the PS3. They brought the PS3 because it was advertised that it had it. When it was taken away, that goes against the advertising what the people bought it for. They were doing nothing bad with it, they were using it for basic things like seeing the specs of the PS3, or unlocking a better web browser, or Running that cool Linux app that their PC didn't officially support.

Inside of linux on the PS3 the users were still locked down from uploading hacked, or modified saved files to the Playstation servers. Everything done on linux was strictly local on the hard drive.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Sonys Servers were hacked by a Criminal organization who had intents of stealing credit card information, as well as peoples personal information. They do not, and are not put in the same group as hackers. Hackers are harmless, once you do something that is harmful, it becomes Crime. Even if OpenOS was still on PS3, they would have still been hacked due to the criminal organizations Criminal ways.  Its just now, due to Sony Attacking the hacking community threatening them with lawsuits for modifying their own hardware for personal use, not going online, and not ruining the days of others. Sony did the wrong thing by Suing, and Blaming the every single hacker ever made. And After their system was hacked a little by the popular GeoHotz (who at the time only had 5% of the code cracked for personal use) Sony Pulled their biggest lawsuit against all of the hackers and issued an opened challenge to every single hacker.

Sony made the fatal error of suing him though, because unlike the previous ones, This one went through to the court system, and while Sony thought they had picked an easy target, it soon turned out that he had the full financial support of many many hackers behind him. Because it made it into court, Sony was forced to review 75% More of their Code inside of the Court Files putting the known amount at 80%. it was inside of these court files (which law requires be opened to the public because Sony is a Foreign owned Stock Exchange Corporation)

With that code known, Hackers used that 80% to continue doing what they have always done by bringing back OpenOS for them by being able to downgrade, and even add OpenOS to the new updated PS3 Version. But then the Criminal Organization got ahold of that 80% Known code and used it to hack into the Playstation Servers though their Advanced Criminal Ways, and steal the credit card, and personal information of every single playstation user.

It is speculated that they chose this time to attack because there would be many scapegoats, with Sonys Many Many Lawsuits, GeoHotz, the Hackers, OpenOS, Anonymous, the Controversy, everything they could easily work under their disguise in their favor.'


So please note, there is a difference between Crime and Hacking.


Edit by Tran:  Shortened the line of dashes so it wouldn't break layout.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2011, 10:57:07 PM by The Doctor »

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Re: Playstation Store to be Restored Next Week
« Reply #45 on: June 03, 2011, 01:40:09 PM »
Maz, do you by any chance have an Ipod which you have jailbroken?   because that is hacking. It is used to make your life easier. hacking is not what you think it is. there is a big difference in Hacking, in fact in todays world, it has many meanings. The main one is to modify, or create something new out of something else.

I have been taking a programming class at my school for the past 3 years now. In all of my programs I end up making, I almost always have to hack the code to find errors, as well as generally improve it for the better. This isnt Malicious, and it is all Hobby and Education. This is that same people who did minor experimentations in Linux on the PS3. They brought the PS3 because it was advertised that it had it. When it was taken away, that goes against the advertising what the people bought it for. They were doing nothing bad with it, they were using it for basic things like seeing the specs of the PS3, or unlocking a better web browser, or Running that cool Linux app that their PC didn't officially support.

Inside of linux on the PS3 the users were still locked down from uploading hacked, or modified saved files to the Playstation servers. Everything done on linux was strictly local on the hard drive.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Sonys Servers were hacked by a Criminal organization who had intents of stealing credit card information, as well as peoples personal information. They do not, and are not put in the same group as hackers. Hackers are harmless, once you do something that is harmful, it becomes Crime. Even if OpenOS was still on PS3, they would have still been hacked due to the criminal organizations Criminal ways.  Its just now, due to Sony Attacking the hacking community threatening them with lawsuits for modifying their own hardware for personal use, not going online, and not ruining the days of others. Sony did the wrong thing by Suing, and Blaming the every single hacker ever made. And After their system was hacked a little by the popular GeoHotz (who at the time only had 5% of the code cracked for personal use) Sony Pulled their biggest lawsuit against all of the hackers and issued an opened challenge to every single hacker.

Sony made the fatal error of suing him though, because unlike the previous ones, This one went through to the court system, and while Sony thought they had picked an easy target, it soon turned out that he had the full financial support of many many hackers behind him. Because it made it into court, Sony was forced to review 75% More of their Code inside of the Court Files putting the known amount at 80%. it was inside of these court files (which law requires be opened to the public because Sony is a Foreign owned Stock Exchange Corporation)

With that code known, Hackers used that 80% to continue doing what they have always done by bringing back OpenOS for them by being able to downgrade, and even add OpenOS to the new updated PS3 Version. But then the Criminal Organization got ahold of that 80% Known code and used it to hack into the Playstation Servers though their Advanced Criminal Ways, and steal the credit card, and personal information of every single playstation user.

It is speculated that they chose this time to attack because there would be many scapegoats, with Sonys Many Many Lawsuits, GeoHotz, the Hackers, OpenOS, Anonymous, the Controversy, everything they could easily work under their disguise in their favor.'


So please note, there is a difference between Crime and Hacking.


Edit by Tran:  Shortened the line of dashes so it wouldn't break layout.
No I don't have a jailbroken iPod.
I see the words jail and borken in it.
meaning if you break it you can be taken to jail as it is against something in the warranty.
Otherwise why is it called as such if this is not the case?


So if these people who hacked in aren't hackers then why are they described as such.
I see the hacker community as the malicious people, the ones doing it into the public domain.
The ones doing it at home singularly at home I class more as modders as they're modifying their own equipment.

All that is done by hackers like GeoHot has basically made it that hacking is bad, I see it as bad no matter what.
You hack you deserve to be put on trial if you're doing it against the public domain, if not you're a modder modifying your system, so long as it's not connected in any way near to the online services.
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Offline killer rin

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Re: Playstation Store to be Restored Next Week
« Reply #46 on: June 03, 2011, 03:00:45 PM »
Modder is when you mess with Hardware, Hacker is when you mess with software. Cracker(or Cyber Criminal) is when you break into computer networks.
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The Warenty only defines what the company will fix, nothing else. My xbox 360 has a warenty for the 3 red lights, if it breaks I can send it

in to get it fixed for free. If I opened it up and fixed it I would be modifying it to work again.
Jailbreaking is actually defined by law that it is perfectly legal, so that argument holds up no case.
Jailbreaking is a term defined by the orgin group of hackers who made the software to jailbreak.. What it means is to "break" out of the prison cell that the software holds you into allowing it to do things you want. Its name was chosen because they needed a "hip" thing that was easy to pronounce for advertising and such.

for Ipod, IPhone, IPad, and pretty much every single Cellphone it means: custom backgrounds, Custom Apps, ect.
jail breaking hurts no one but you. What it means is what if it breaks, you have to buy a new one instead of being able to send it into Apple to fix it.

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The people that broke into the servers were cyber criminals, not hackers. Cyber Criminals are criminal organizations that uses basic software that they develope themselves in C#, C++, C, and any other coding language made. If you wanted to get technical and literal. It would be

Computer Programmers which would be the Cyber Criminals, but that would be steriotypical. Try going down to your local Computer Programming firm and call the I.T guy a Criminal, or a Hacker. It would be degrading, even thuogh its this guy that controls the software.

Hackers work with software already made to find holes for personal use. finding these holes are hobby in nature and only allow for one or two thing, such as the custom apps, custom background, or Linux. If they want to actually break into the system they would have to take up some years in Computer Sciences cources to gain the knowledge on how to efficiently break into a system, find errors, cover their tracks, ect. 

And its like I said, statistics show that its Computer Scientists which are the main source of Cyber Criminals, and not hackers.

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to top this off Every Single Computer Programmers, and Game Programmer out there has gotten their job because they had been hackers since they were little. Their portfolio consists mainly of hacks. People Hack Minecraft to allow them to put in personal Mods, People Hack Games such as Half Life to create Counter Strike, People hack Starcraft through the map editor to create versions of the game which are in completely different genres from Starcraft.

If you were to send every single hacker to prison, you know what you would have? ALOT of trained "criminals" who would know how to efficiently break into computer systems, and as hence would be Crackers. Every Single Game, and Software application ever made, wouldnt have been made. This copy of windows your running, Gone. That Game called Mass effect, Gone. Consoles, Gone. PC's, worse then now. all you would have is a bunch of lower tech than we currently have and we would be as locked down as china is.

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It completely Obserds be to see how general the lines have faded in previous years between everything. The actual definitions of what each ting is is wayy different than what people think they are.

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Re: Playstation Store to be Restored Next Week
« Reply #47 on: June 03, 2011, 06:06:52 PM »
Modder is when you mess with Hardware, Hacker is when you mess with software. Cracker(or Cyber Criminal) is when you break into computer networks.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Warenty only defines what the company will fix, nothing else. My xbox 360 has a warenty for the 3 red lights, if it breaks I can send it

in to get it fixed for free. If I opened it up and fixed it I would be modifying it to work again.
Jailbreaking is actually defined by law that it is perfectly legal, so that argument holds up no case.
Jailbreaking is a term defined by the orgin group of hackers who made the software to jailbreak.. What it means is to "break" out of the prison cell that the software holds you into allowing it to do things you want. Its name was chosen because they needed a "hip" thing that was easy to pronounce for advertising and such.

for Ipod, IPhone, IPad, and pretty much every single Cellphone it means: custom backgrounds, Custom Apps, ect.
jail breaking hurts no one but you. What it means is what if it breaks, you have to buy a new one instead of being able to send it into Apple to fix it.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The people that broke into the servers were cyber criminals, not hackers. Cyber Criminals are criminal organizations that uses basic software that they develope themselves in C#, C++, C, and any other coding language made. If you wanted to get technical and literal. It would be

Computer Programmers which would be the Cyber Criminals, but that would be steriotypical. Try going down to your local Computer Programming firm and call the I.T guy a Criminal, or a Hacker. It would be degrading, even thuogh its this guy that controls the software.

Hackers work with software already made to find holes for personal use. finding these holes are hobby in nature and only allow for one or two thing, such as the custom apps, custom background, or Linux. If they want to actually break into the system they would have to take up some years in Computer Sciences cources to gain the knowledge on how to efficiently break into a system, find errors, cover their tracks, ect. 

And its like I said, statistics show that its Computer Scientists which are the main source of Cyber Criminals, and not hackers.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
to top this off Every Single Computer Programmers, and Game Programmer out there has gotten their job because they had been hackers since they were little. Their portfolio consists mainly of hacks. People Hack Minecraft to allow them to put in personal Mods, People Hack Games such as Half Life to create Counter Strike, People hack Starcraft through the map editor to create versions of the game which are in completely different genres from Starcraft.

If you were to send every single hacker to prison, you know what you would have? ALOT of trained "criminals" who would know how to efficiently break into computer systems, and as hence would be Crackers. Every Single Game, and Software application ever made, wouldnt have been made. This copy of windows your running, Gone. That Game called Mass effect, Gone. Consoles, Gone. PC's, worse then now. all you would have is a bunch of lower tech than we currently have and we would be as locked down as china is.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It completely Obserds be to see how general the lines have faded in previous years between everything. The actual definitions of what each ting is is wayy different than what people think they are.
Thank you for explaining this Rin.
As I have been seeing all of the things from a purely outsider view all of these definitions have apparently been wrong.
It will take me a while to break the old ways I have previously learnt, as what you have outlined in here I would still class as modding right now.

And lol my iPod can't run any apps because it's a iPod shuffle. :P
And I am about to go into Games design which outlines programming and I haven't "hacked" anything as you put it.
I haven't touched programs or anything so I am the rule against it. :P
Come look at my art.
Deviantart: http://mazder-1x5.deviantart.com/
Tumblr: http://mazderverhal.tumblr.com/
Leave ideas or critiques or anything with me there or anywhere you can reach me. :)